Tuesday, February 12, 2008

Easy As One, Two, Three...

Read the following two passages very carefully...


2 Samuel 24:1-41 Chron 21:1-4
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which [was] with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.

And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see [it]: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?

Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know [it].

And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they [be]: but, my lord the king, [are] they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.


Oh dear... Oh... My...

What's a inerrant scripture fundie to believe? Was it god? Or Satan? (In case you missed it, reread the first verse in both passages, paying special attention to the italicized portions...)

Oh, for your information, the original Hebrew is very specific: In Samuel, it specifically states that יהוה (Yĕhovah) was behind "moving David" to do a census; in Chronicles, the word used is שטן (aka satan) who moved David to do the census...

Now granted, I'll give you some leeway you may not wish for: In Samuel, it is god's anger... Thus, we can assume that anytime god gets angry, he pulls a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde switch-up, and his anger is personified as a "satanic power"...

Or, Satan and god activated their Wonder Twin powers, and thus, somewhere between "form of a screaming eagle!" and "form of an ice bucket!", the Hebrews were counted and a census was performed...

So which supernatural being wanted David to do the census?

Any "literal reading," "inerrant bible-believing" Christians care to explain this little conundrum?

Granted, I could care less... I was researching something entirely different (READ: "historical fiction") when this little "god-stopper" grabbed my attention...

But I know that, fundies being so ever concerned for my eternal well-being, they would want to clear this up for me... Granted, I have full faith in the spin ability of the god-fearing to come up with something that sounds good...

Have fun! (and play nice!)

20 comments:

Anonymous said...

Why bother .Nothing to convince you of. You are already convinced. So no need to go farther right?

Jason Hughes said...

Please, don't strain yourself...

Does this mean you have no idea of how to reconcile this blatant discrepancy in a literal reading?

Deacon Barry said...

Satan is the anger of the Lord. At that time he was still working for the big guy as his number one enforcer - he persecuted Job a few books later under God's instruction. It wasn't until sometime between the old and new testaments that the war in heaven occurred and Satan was cast down. Unfortunately, we don't know which year this happened because nobody on Earth bothered to record it in the historical record. Bit of an oversight that. How do you miss a war in heaven, with thousands of rebel angels being cast down to Hell, transforming into demons in the process?
Maybe it was cloudy?

Anonymous said...

It means you just want an argument . You don't care of the anwers any way. You have your belief of life. You don't believe in GOD so why do you even look in the Bible what do you care ? Except you like to argue with people.

Jason Hughes said...

Deacon: Cloudy day! LOL! Actually, the way my "teachers" always taught me, the fall of angels happened before god created man--creating man was a direct response to his failing to make a perfect creature in angels... I don't think it was biblically based in any way--most of what I was taught wasn't, so... And to take god's anger personified as Satan one step further--that would lead us to the conclusion that when Jesus got angry and kicked the money changers out of the temple, he must have been possessed by the big bad himself, eh?

Anon: I also read science fiction books, even though I don't believe in light-warp ships or alien battles involving lizard creatures intent on destroying us... That's what fiction is all about--the joy of reading... And just because one doesn't believe in sky-daddy doesn't mean the book is worthless--it just measn it isn't as important as you wish it were...

And since when is arguing (I would use the word "debate," but that's just semantics...) a bad thing? I'm assuming here that your refusal to give an answer in any way to the challenge means you either don't believe in inerrant scripture, and thus, have only commented to play devil's advocate... Or you cannot defend and reasonably assess your inerrant bible state of mind in regards to this "revelation" by a lowly heathen such as myself and are content to ignore the obvious in hopes of retaining blind faith...

Either way, unless you provide a reasonable, logical, and well-thought response which in some way can salvage your faith in inerrant scripture, I see little point in your original comment...

Was there a point to saying "Why do you care?" when I had already stated my position on the matter? Or does restating other's positions in some way make you feel as if you've contributed?

Just curious....

Anonymous said...

I just am curious as to why over and over you bring up religion to debate . Why wouldn't you want to be passionate about some thing you believe in rather than something you don't. For everything some one puts on here you will shoot them down one way or another. You do alot of research for something you have no passion for.
Sorry my answer for you is not all " well thought out " , "Logical" I am simple minded .And simple minded answers you get.

FCSuper said...

The bible retells many of the same stories with different characters in many places. This is because it was mashed together from several different sources at several different times. Also, it is a myth that the ancient Hebrews were monotheistic. It is possible that the name that became assoicated with Satan was originally one of the other gods worshipped at that time, in addition to the likes of Baal.

Jason Hughes said...

Anon: While I am not passionate about "Jay-sus," I am curious about his blind followers and their worship of a book (let alone a deity) that has not only failed to live up to claims and expectations (as n the case here, "inerrant") and their effect upon society in general. In other words, I am passionate about understanding and learning where fundies are coming from, and attempting to "lift the blinders of faith" so to speak. And while your flattery will get you no where ("you will shoot them down one way or another"), I'd like to know why you are refusing to even try to defend your faith in your inerrant book? This rabbit trail is getting old...

I'm also curious as to why you seem proud of the fact that "I am simple minded .And simple minded answers you get."... Our ability to reason and think logically and in concrete terms are what separates us from the animals, both in the fundie Judeo-Christian sense AND the evolutionary sense! (One small tidbit of common ground we share!) Why wouldn't you aspire to critical thinking and a logical, well-reasoned analytical look at what you hold dear and true?

FC: Now there's something I can look up! Perhaps a study on the Hebrew and Greek for "Baal" will lead to some answers. What you of course are suggesting is that the God referenced here is not YHWH at all, even though this is the word used in the Hebrew... Perhaps in other instances, YHWH was substituted as Satan or Baal? Or even that YHWH and Baal were one and the same, therefore the names were quite interchangeable even back in the Hebrew day! Interesting...

But, of course, not being a follower of Jay-sus, I suppose I should not be curious at all...

:D

Have a good day all....

mom said...

hello jason! you know i was not going to say anything since i think you just want to get some people all fired up but you know you are spreading the gospel by doing so and Gods word is getting out there even if you don't believe and you or any of us don't have all the answers. i KNOW my Heavenly Father has His own way of doing things and we humans, that are not that smart to begin with, we really don't know all His ways. i know there are things in the Bible that back that up but again its the personal relationship you have with God that works wonders for your soul. non-believers will always find fault and i am not surprised by this. maybe you should go back to another Bible college to learn or look up in those books that pastors that preach the Word do to get some more insight. i am sure you will find an answer. i looked up both in my niv Bible and in the small print they explained the difference (and i must say i don't understand it all) but i don't really understand your question. all i know God is using you more than you know everytime you put up these things about God. God is supernatural and that goes beyond us humans. so thanks for spreading the gospel and i won't ever give up in praying for you since i love you. love and prayers ps are you not wanting me to comment anymore since its getting tough again to publish my comment. i have no idea what to do with all that stuff down below this box. :) all you have to do is just say no to my comments with your mouth and i will get the drift! :) you don't have to test your mom computer skills which i would fail big time! :)

mom said...

hello jason, i wanted to add one more thing that i was thinking about while trying to stay warm again and you commented to one of your people that responded and you asked why we worship a book and we are not to worship a book but God. if i understand right the Bible was not around as generous as it is now and a lot of people had to hear about the God from others. i heard one preacher say the Bible is for the believers more than non-believers. well, that is all i think i want to write on this subject since i feel i am talking to a brick wall sometimes with you. i don't mean that in a mean way but i think you missed the boat and should of went to school for law. get rich on a big case and take care your dad and me. :) :) my faith is real and i can't expect you or any other non-believer to truly understand till you let God rule in our life. i am supposed to live out my faith and let God do the rest and that is what i am doing with you. letting God have you again. you and the rest of you rugrats. :) love and prayers

Jason Hughes said...

So I'm a brick wall... I've been called worse, Mom... :D

Anywho, the point, Mother, isn't that I don't understand "faith" per se, it is WHY you would place faith in something not only completely unrealistic, but, as mentioned earlier, something that doesn't live up to expectation 9 times out of 10...

Of course, you don't fall into the category of "bible thumper" anymore than I do, and you base a lot of your faith on personal feeling and emotional experience, not the bible--therefore, you don't fall into the "bible worshipping" categories like most fundies of the Christian persuasion...

Regardless, telling me this is like spreading the gospel message...? What mirror do you use? :D If this is spreading the "message of god" by showing out the inaccuracies of the blind faith, bible-worshipping majority of evangelicals and fundamentalists, then so be it... Maybe one day they'll all just learn to be "go with the flow" types much like yourself when it comes to matters of religion and spirituality... Until then, I will continue to roast them in their own juices... With a hint of garlic, of course...

And I can guarantee you, Mom, I've studied this book more than 80% of the Christians out there--it's not a matter of "seeing what other pastors think," it's a matter of getting people to stop swallowing whole the crap spewed out of A LOT of pulpits on Sunday mornings and learning to think and act for themselves in matters of religious and spiritual realms...

FYI: Those little doo-dads under the comment box are put there by Blogger, not me... But it looks like you got the hang of it again... :D

Hugs and love....

PS: As to "HIS ways are higher than ours"--that's a cop out, but I'll let it slide since I know you'll be calling me tonight to discuss this further... Which is fine, it seems like FOREVER since we've talked... Since what, last Friday? Must be a new record!! :D Just call BEFORE Survivor....

:D

mom/anon./susan/becky/etc. said...

hello jason! i know it seems like forever since i really had a great talk with you also. i miss our little talks. :) well, i feel anytime the Bible is out there anywhere it is spreading the gospel since its out there and people might start looking in it to find out what is all in it and than the Holy Spirit takes over and something might click in the heart. all it takes to go to heaven is believing God sent His Son to die for us sinners and He rose the third day and you have a place in heaven. that is what carries me when i see you do these God is not real stuff since you did ask God in your life at one time. once God has you i know He won't let go. you might let Him go but He doesn't. and i know you think its a lot of feelings but i have seen things happen that doesn't happen for no other reason than God had His hand in it. and i won't say feeling don't enter into it either but the feelings when you know that its the voice of God whispering to you. its the lifestyle you lead and its the way you think in general. God first in everything you think and live. its is not always easy since we do have feelings that are not God like but with God in your life you do make the right choices. now pass that offering plate and nothing less than $100! :) :) no change making in the plate! :) snort! one more thing i feel the Bible is a guidebook for us to live and its shows what can happen when you don't live the way you should. people that wrote the Bible back than didn't have a very easy life. thinking and doing things where so different and even now just a few years back how we didn't have all the stuff we have now yet alot of feelings you have are the same as back than. they had maybe different ways that the feelings came about but still the same. its what we do with these feelings and actions and thats where God steps into the picture. for me i know God loves us all and wants us to seek His ways out. He is always ready to take us in and help us in a supernatural way. i do believe you study these things but the heart is not listening to the head stuff. so many people have head smarts and the heart smarts goes by way of russia. or greenland or new jersey, pick a place. :) i do have to say again these anon. people make it hard to know if they are different or the same. can't they make a name up to put on these comments. but if anon. #1 is a believer he should never give up on anyone. prayer works wonders and you always try to let others know what God can do for us humans. i don't know it all since i am not a big study type person but i know Who i believe in and i will always talk about how He loves me and can love you and have a place in heaven. well, jason, my sermon is over and i still didn't get that offering plate! well, such is life. i guess i will go out and water that money tree that i bought that said its supposed to give us some green. :) now that was funny! snort on that one. :) if you get this before your lunch break you can call me at lunch if you want. trying to help dad out by not making my phone bill big this month. but have been a bit busy with things. didn't see this till now and spent valentines at the home depot. now didn't i make a lot of woman jealous. :) every girls dream to spend valentines at the home depot! i think dad is making me a steak tonight. i guess it will make up for it. and i take it you are watching lost? well, i know why its call lost, you do get lost in the story line. i just can't make heads or tails out of this story. i feel i am lost! :) still like watching it. well, enough. love and prayers

Anonymous said...

You are right I should not give up on praying for any one.

Kel said...

I love LOST.

There. I have no interest in the bible, so I thought I'd post a non-related comment.

Of course, you DO like an argument, ya know! ;)

Sylvia said...

This is mom. Thisismom'scommentswithoutlinebreaksorparagraphing.
I've got a migraine trying to read mom's comments. lol
love ya ja.
I have nothing serious to say about your blog here. sorry...
Sylvia

DaBich said...

I have an answer for ya, but you aren't gonna like it...

MEN wrote the Bible, that's WHY it's all messed uP! lol

Thanks for commenting on G vs. D, Jason. HUGZ!

DaBich said...

BTW, how is your friend doing with that Monster??

Jason Hughes said...

Hugs back to you, sweetie!!

The Monster...

Well, tests came back "abnormal" but "non-monstrous"...

Which means either:

A. It's only a matter of time
B. This individual has always been a bit abnormal (hugs to you, too!!)
C. More waiting, more tests, more waiting for symptoms...

What truly sucks is that they can't get health coverage... Pre-existing conditions, among other silly, stupid rules and laws that almost seem drawn just to make poor individuals suffer a death penalty of sorts...

But so far, things are looking semi-okay...

Thanks for asking--I also know the other person appreciates your thoughts and concern... You're a gem!!

Jason Hughes said...

So I'm a brick wall... I've been called worse, Mom... :D

Anywho, the point, Mother, isn't that I don't understand "faith" per se, it is WHY you would place faith in something not only completely unrealistic, but, as mentioned earlier, something that doesn't live up to expectation 9 times out of 10...

Of course, you don't fall into the category of "bible thumper" anymore than I do, and you base a lot of your faith on personal feeling and emotional experience, not the bible--therefore, you don't fall into the "bible worshipping" categories like most fundies of the Christian persuasion...

Regardless, telling me this is like spreading the gospel message...? What mirror do you use? :D If this is spreading the "message of god" by showing out the inaccuracies of the blind faith, bible-worshipping majority of evangelicals and fundamentalists, then so be it... Maybe one day they'll all just learn to be "go with the flow" types much like yourself when it comes to matters of religion and spirituality... Until then, I will continue to roast them in their own juices... With a hint of garlic, of course...

And I can guarantee you, Mom, I've studied this book more than 80% of the Christians out there--it's not a matter of "seeing what other pastors think," it's a matter of getting people to stop swallowing whole the crap spewed out of A LOT of pulpits on Sunday mornings and learning to think and act for themselves in matters of religious and spiritual realms...

FYI: Those little doo-dads under the comment box are put there by Blogger, not me... But it looks like you got the hang of it again... :D

Hugs and love....

PS: As to "HIS ways are higher than ours"--that's a cop out, but I'll let it slide since I know you'll be calling me tonight to discuss this further... Which is fine, it seems like FOREVER since we've talked... Since what, last Friday? Must be a new record!! :D Just call BEFORE Survivor....

:D

Jason Hughes said...

Anon: While I am not passionate about "Jay-sus," I am curious about his blind followers and their worship of a book (let alone a deity) that has not only failed to live up to claims and expectations (as n the case here, "inerrant") and their effect upon society in general. In other words, I am passionate about understanding and learning where fundies are coming from, and attempting to "lift the blinders of faith" so to speak. And while your flattery will get you no where ("you will shoot them down one way or another"), I'd like to know why you are refusing to even try to defend your faith in your inerrant book? This rabbit trail is getting old...

I'm also curious as to why you seem proud of the fact that "I am simple minded .And simple minded answers you get."... Our ability to reason and think logically and in concrete terms are what separates us from the animals, both in the fundie Judeo-Christian sense AND the evolutionary sense! (One small tidbit of common ground we share!) Why wouldn't you aspire to critical thinking and a logical, well-reasoned analytical look at what you hold dear and true?

FC: Now there's something I can look up! Perhaps a study on the Hebrew and Greek for "Baal" will lead to some answers. What you of course are suggesting is that the God referenced here is not YHWH at all, even though this is the word used in the Hebrew... Perhaps in other instances, YHWH was substituted as Satan or Baal? Or even that YHWH and Baal were one and the same, therefore the names were quite interchangeable even back in the Hebrew day! Interesting...

But, of course, not being a follower of Jay-sus, I suppose I should not be curious at all...

:D

Have a good day all....