Monday, October 30, 2006

The Eleventh Commandment:
Thou Shalt Be Ignorant

HACKER WARNING FOR NON-CONFORMIST CHRISTIANS AND ATHEISTS (and anyone else known to piss off the fundies) NEAR BOTTOM


Over on Leitmotif, Ergo was having a discussion about Human Perfection, and how while it is possible for man to obtain such a state insomuch as we understand it to be so from a certain perspective, others who come at life from the view of "man as fallen" or "man is wrong" conceive of standards of probability and impossibility. His take is quite nicely put, but I wish to follow the lines of argument on a more practical plane, as I tend to think in terms of practicality, or obvious and immediate application as such.

The reason I bring it up is because, in reading his post, my mind reacted to certain "tangents," shall we say, and thought I'd expound upon some of the thoughts and ideas this caused to happen in my mind.

1. Man Was Created Perfect in God's Image:
No, no, no, not that I believe this, but it is one of the "standards" to which a Christian (mostly literal, fundamentalist ones) which eventually leads them down the road to the "fall" of man, or the insertion of the "sin" nature that prevents man from ever re-attaining his so-called perfect status within the realm that they believe their god intended. In a nutshell, god created man in his image (woman as an after-thought from a supposed spare rib [which in turn begs how a creature created perfectly could still be so when missing a rib]) and thus, in all ways possible in the realm of earth and its reality, man was, indeed, perfect. But, this perfection, as it were, left much to be desired, as anyone can tell from a simple, short reading of the Genesis account. So let's start with a definition of perfect,shall we?

Perfection: 1 : the quality or state of being perfect : as a : freedom from fault or defect : FLAWLESSNESS
Free from fault or defect. I think anyone would allow for that as a perfectly reasonable working definition, wouldn't you? But, then, if god created such a perfect man in his image, how was man able to be duped by so silly and naive a trick as the snake going, "Hmm-hmm, doesn't that fruit look yummy?" Now one could argue that, as Eve was made from only a rib, and Adam had the audacity to be created from scratch, she didn't have much of a shot, did she? Or perhaps, one could argue that being "perfect" apparently didn't include a working knowledge of good and evil, therefore she didn't know it would be wrong to disobey god and eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (but then the whole "fall" story falls apart, as it were, for without knowing good and evil, how could she actually commit "evil" by eating from the tree?) Then there is the argument, the most logical one, as it were, that the story is just that--a story. Any critical look, using the working facilities of our supposedly god-given brains (which begs why more people don't use them) leads one to make supercilious leaps of logic and a suspension of disbelief that even B-rated horror movies can't attain.

Then there is the question of body parts alone, never mind the working facilities of brains that Adam and Eve couldn't employ even in a state of perfection. If their bodies were designed perfectly, in the image of sky god (although bodily structure is generally not considered to be in god's image--wonder why? Does the thought of god having a penis or a vagina really bother people that much?), how is it there are so many genetic defects, flaws, diseases, and such? If the body were truly "designed" and made "perfect," as a literal reading leads one to believe, no matter how disingenuously, how could the body then leave that perfect state simply from a working knowledge of the good and evil that was supposedly contained in a piece of fruit? Logically, if something is perfect, it cannot be unperfect, or even fall from that perfection, or it wasn't truly perfect from the get-go!

Further, if one is to buy into the whole "perfect bodies" fallacy, where in the hell did the appendix come from? It has no function whatsoever!! (and if it does, someone needs to get mine back from the doctor who removed it when I was in ninth grade!!) One needs again to suspend disbelief in order to come up with plausible reasons as to why god, in his perfect design, would include a useless organ? (Never mind the extra rib that was used to fashion Eve!) Along those lines, one I suppose could argue the appendix was only used for eating "perfect" fruit (i.e., fruit not containing a knowledge of good and evil, or knowledge of snake anatomy, for that matter); or perhaps argue that we "micro-evolutionized" it away, which, in all actuality, a perfect body would have no need to micro-evolutionize anything away from anywhere--supposedly it's already perfect! (not to mention that, if the body evolutionized away from having an organ in a perfect body, wouldn't the body then be even closer to perfection as it figured out it didn't need said organ?)

Then there are the countless mutations, birth defects, abnormalities--I suggest anyone who would like a firsthand glimpse, or better yet, an awe-inspiring account of the actual numbers that still carry on to this day of Cyclops', webbed feet and fingers, double-headed persons, multi-eye faceted, hair covering, extra-limb carrying births--live births!--that happen every day in our world pick up a copy of Mutants by Armand Marie Leroi. Subtitled "On Genetic Variety and the Human Body," it's a fascinating read! You've no idea! (And it's has pictures and illustrations!!) Point being, though, a perfect body wouldn't break down, wouldn't devolve into the hunks of junk we currently pull around against gravity, and there certainly wouldn't be over 100,000 miscarriages every year in the United States alone! God could have done a lot better with this "perfect state" he supposedly created us in, wouldn't you say?

Regardless, the "created in perfection" isn't a plausible working model, no matter which way you slice the pie. As to whether Ergo's greater point in his post, that perfection is attainable by man, I don't know if I follow it correctly or not. I may not be the brightest bulb (in fact, I know I'm not!), but I think even if you do buy into the whole "man is in sin" argument, it allows for a great read, so I suggest you check it out (and not because he links back to me in it! :D)

2. The Only Way for Man to Reach Perfection Again is Through Jesus.
Now, never minding the fact that we are now being asked to appeal to the very god that made us flawed (in that, what he gave us neither retained its supposed perfection, and even in our state of perfection, we simply needed to be asked and were indeed looking for something more than what had been provided), in the hopes that, if this radical cult leader form the zero-st century is correct and to be believed, he was again perfect, and died perfectly flawlessly so that we can all once again join in happy bliss and ignorance this creator for eternity (and I know some of you are cringing, as this would be your definition of hell! :D) Darkmind brought up a great point earlier in his comments on my last post, and I agree with him whole-heartedly (though my optimistic nature prevents me from believing anyone to be truly evil! :D), that without a working knowledge of what evil, or bad, is, one cannot even begin to know what good is, and vice-versa! It is impossible for one to assess, for instance, the "goodness" or "badness" of a toaster, until such a day comes as a toaster stops working on you; but even then, you don't swear off toasters! You simply label that particular toaster as bad, and go out to buy a good toaster. Perhaps you may go so far as to label the brand of toaster as "bad," or, less than ideal, but toasters in and of themselves remain "good" only because you have now experienced a "bad" toaster.

When it comes to fluid morality (and the other half of you that couldn't understand why we would think of heaven as hell are now up in arms over the very concept!), good is only as good, and bad is only as bad, as it affects us directly. True, one can hold to "murder" as bad without having been murdered, or having been a murderer--but murder has to have occurred within your realm of existence to be labeled so, otherwise you wouldn't even know what murder was, and without knowing what it was, it couldn't be bad. Morality is dependent upon human perception. It kind of goes back to that wise old Chinese saying, "If a tree falls in a forest, but no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Well, one wouldn't know unless one were there. And though one could reasonably argue about sound waves and vibrations and such that there theoretically was a sound, the sound itself is dependent upon your ear bones being there to catch the vibration, thus enabling there to actually be a sound! Without those bones in your ear, there isn't a sound, as nothing was contacted, or vibrated, as a result of the falling tree. As such, it goes back to "right" and "wrong." "Right" can only be "right" or "good" insomuch as there is a comparative "bad" or "not so good" in comparison.

Concluding, therefore one could reasonably argue that naivete, or a non-working knowledge of right and wrong, could allow for a "state" of perfection; however, it is a mislabelling to use the word "perfection" in describing this state of non-morality. The opposite wouldn't be amorality, or bad, as this would imply a working sense of moral and good--this state would actually be ignorance, or naivete. And in being naive or ignorant for eternity with a sky god that couldn't even keep your "perfect" bodies from breaking down and mutating, you have not attained perfection, you have obtained ignorance. Heaven could not possibly be a "happy" or "blissful" place unless one were well aware of the "hell" or "suffering" place with which to compare your existence as such. You can't know the beauty of a rose unless: you've seen a rose and you've also seen a dead flower. You could know it is a rose if someone tells you, but unless you have something "ugly" or "plain" to compare it against, you don't know that you find it beautiful (and, even then, perhaps you don't find it as such, but instead see it as pretentious and gaudy, in which case you still need a daisy or buttercup to have a reference point).

Are you catching my meaning here? For a man to claim to be the way to heaven, you in actuality wouldn't be attaining heaven, insomuch as heaven is to be understood from a Christian perspective. You'd simply be attaining ignorance. And, I dare say, ignorance is to be found aplenty here on earth, and we are not in need of a place which would allow one to not have use of his faculties. For you'd only end up in nonexistence--which is where we're all going to end up anyway...

Cheers!

On a slightly unrelated note, it seems a hacker has been wreaking havoc on Agnostic Mom, The Atheist Mama, and God Is For Suckers websites. It's hard to believe that this isn't religiously motivated, wouldn't you? It's nice to know that fundies not only whine and bitch about being persecuted, but that they also take an active role in doing it to others.... Let's see, what would they call themselves? "WWJH: Who Would Jesus Hack"? Cause, you know, Jesus was all about getting others to shut up....

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

Glad to see you at least obey your own commandments, because "Thou truly are ignorant"

Jason Hughes said...

That all just sailed right over your lil head, didn't it, Slappy?

What part didn't make sense? What did you not understand? What do you have issues with in regards to the logic employed?

Oh, that's right, it's easier to just say I'm ignorant than to use your brain, isn't it?

And I see you're still ashamed to associate your name to your loyalty to sky god... Funny, that, don't ya think?

Darkmind said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mom said...

hello jason! you know that its me since i don't give 2 hoots if you know its me even if i am not the smartest person on the block! :)i read your blog more than once and it made my coffee go cold!and than i read the Genesis account of the good and evil part and i really don't get your ignorant thing.at being a woman that God made me from an area of a mans body close to his heart and i am a help mate to dad and i don't look at it as he is better than me at all. dad treats me better than he treats himself in so many ways and that is a commandment from God for men to do towards the wives they have. not knowing what good and evil are and the thing i feel are bodiescan do that because of the fall we can't do now will be maybe part of what heaven will be like. i love watching those csi and things that go bump in the night shows and after watching it you wonder what would change in the way i think if it happened to me. the shows take away the peace and safe feeling we all like to have all the time. when people enter my home i want them to feel that they are safe and warm and at peace and i know it won't really stay that way since there is that knowledge of good and evil. after reading that part of Genesis He did not make a person HE could control with buttons but someone that had choices. eve had a choice but the serpent was the evil one doing his thing to mess things up. now with that knowledge we are cleaning the mess we made and will be till we die.God sent His Son to die to help us to be the people He wants us to be not make us. in heaven the things we struggle with i feel won't be there. now i am sure you can find things to blow holes in all this. BUT HEY! at least i tried to do a thinking thing!! its hard to go all the way down to get a hot cup of coffee when the brain power is so half on!! :) :) snort! snort! that snort makes me a harley girl!! no matter what my age!! :) now all this to say sometimes is not bad to be ignorant. i rather not know the good and evil of everything since knowing it to much good can make me think i can do anything and everything and that can make me put my nose so far up in the air that if it rains i would drown and knowing evil the way i do can make me do things to hurt other people. now that my batteries are running low i am signing off and putting some good old country on looking to make a coffee cake to make my house smell good and my tummy feel good! you know jason maybe you are scared that heaven will only have country music going through the speakers. i don't think so since we will have those implant things darkmind talked to me about and that will take care of the problem of the music you do not like!! :) SNORT! (in this e-mail is the first i ever typed my snort out! i should get something for this! the real me is really coming out since i do snort a lot when i laugh. anonymous should feel so free!! and yet another point to make: Christ sets you free!) love and prayers

mom said...

hello jason this is mom again with yet another reason why i like to be ignorant of evil!! this happened just a bit ago. i was down at my kitchen table looking in my bench that opens up to alot of my cookbooks looking for some recipes and i moved the rocker over near the kitchen area since now i have more room to do this since dad made it so. well, back at the ranch, i stood up straight from bending over the bench and table and i bumped into the rocker just enough to scare me that i screamed since it felt like someone behind me!! not only did i scream and jump and was afraid to turn around but i did this twice almost in a row!! :):) snort snort (alot!) and thiswhole thing came flashing in my mind and my poor dog had no idea what i was screaming about. :) :) see if i was ignorant of knowing evil i would not have this problem and neither would my shyanne (dog)! hows this for some thought!! really going deep here! this should be blogged for sure!! snort snort :) :) had to tell you this and all the people in blog land and i also forgot my cold cup of coffee and since i climbed all those stairs to do this i felt i should share this since after looking at the time i really blew most of my morning with doing this blog thing. well, anyway, jason i hope this made you laugh a bit. love and prayers

Jason Hughes said...

Mom,
Remind me the next time I'm up there to teach you how to make capital letters... :D

Also, about your second point, knowing "fear" and knowing "evil" are two very seperate things...

Hugs,
Jason

mom said...

hello jason yet again! thought i check the blog to see if you looked at my comment and you did and yes i should make capital letters put at my age its to much work for these fingers. especially since i save my finger energy for my cocheting. i think evil and fear go hand in hand. this whole fear and evil thing is like the chicken and egg on which came first. well, anyway, i will do more with my day than blog. really i will, but it doesn't look like that does it now. :) love and prayers

Darkmind said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mom said...

hello jason and darkmind! couldn't come up with anything better than the chicken and the egg since i was still getting over my rocker thing! :) i will try to do better but don't count on it since my brain power is limited since i had 5 kids and a husband and now its in-laws and grandchildren! :) now this is what i say about grandchildren: should of had them first! now what are you going to say?? :) its funny when i do say that and some people just look at me like i'm nuts but thats fine since i am a bit nuts but i love when people do get it and laugh with me since i love to laugh! :) well, anyway, got to go eat something before i go workout. love and prayers

Deacon Barry said...

Hi Jason. I got nuked as well. Something went through my bookmarks with a chainsaw (well that's what it feels like) Mess everywhere. I've been slowly reinstating the lost links. I liked your comment on Agnostic Mom, and she linked to you, so I came.
Do you get Jesus people at your door a lot? I've been at my current address for 6 years, and I've only had them once.

Jason Hughes said...

It used to be only once a year, but this year is now up to three, if counting both times Jesus Man and Jesus Woman showed up...

Word must be spreading about the only gay couples for miles around... :D

Thanks for stopping by! Sorry to hear your site got hit as well... So far so good here, but I suppose that's why they're shoeing up on my doorstep instead... :D

Darkmind said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ergo said...

Jason, good post.

I'm glad to note that you correctly pointed out the "pre-fall" existence of Adam and Eve as not perfect existence but ignorant existence. Not knowing good from evil does not make one *good*, it makes them innocent at best, stupid at worst. [I don't know if you read my post "God's Original Plan for Humanity" where I argue, assuming Genesis, that God's plan was to create Human Beings as just another species of animals... nothing too special as such. And it was the Devil that infact does the job of liberating us and our minds from the slavery of ignorance and stagnation. All of this insofar as assuming Genesis is true, which it is not! ;)]

When I say that perfection is possible *only* to humans, I use a definition of perfection that is appropriate to humans, not one that is appropriate to Supernatural or mystical beings.

In of my earlier posts on the topic, "God Cannot be Perfect, but Man Can," I argued a similar line of reasoning. In the comments section there, I defined Human Perfection as:

Perfection is attained by keeping in mind the nature of reality and attaining the right to say without guilt that you have done nothing wrong; that you have nothing to hide; that you have nothing to regret about.

What is a perfect man? A man who is above reproach and devoid of guilt for any and all actions under his immediate control. A man whose actions match his integrity. A man who bears in mind the nature of reality, the nature of chance endemic in reality, the nature on non-intended consequences inherent in reality, but also knows that he is fully in control of his own actions and his own ideas.

I'm open to hearing your critiques (if any) of my projection of the perfect man and the way I have defined perfection.

Anonymous said...

AMAZING! So much BS from so few idiots.

Jason Hughes said...

...said the idiot who, unable to fathom a complete thought in his own head, decided it must be everyone else...

mom said...

hello again! i wasn't going to take the time today to look at anything but i had to come up for something else and thought i quick look at you blog jason! so this blog had 15 comments! wow! what is the biggest # of comments you ever had on a post? well, anyway, darkmind i know you were kidding with me. i am glad i bring a smile to your face. i try to smile about everything and anything since for some reason things work out better that way. and you are very right about me being momish ever since i was a little girl i wanted to be a wife and a mom. it started i think with my cool playhouse my dad built me! :) i had some cool pink cardboard kitchen and play food, dolls, dress up clothing that was the coolest! well, anyway, i could on but got to go make a apple coffee cake i found in a magazine that looked so good! its ashame somebody is hacking these sites. why can't people just be nice to each other no matter what views we all have? i don't know about these anon. people either since they all sound like they are not enjoying life! these blogs are like someones diary that is not locked! :) i think its a good thing. its a bit better than a diary since people can open up a new idea either from reading the blog or commenting on the blog. well, better get to my kitchen. also, before i go darkmind, if i remember right you are from GA, i bet you guys are warmer than we are up north since we already had snow flakes here! sometimes i think with my age and all my aches and pains i should move to where its warmer. enjoy your weather. :) keep warm jason! love and prayers

Ergo said...

Jason, good post.

I'm glad to note that you correctly pointed out the "pre-fall" existence of Adam and Eve as not perfect existence but ignorant existence. Not knowing good from evil does not make one *good*, it makes them innocent at best, stupid at worst. [I don't know if you read my post "God's Original Plan for Humanity" where I argue, assuming Genesis, that God's plan was to create Human Beings as just another species of animals... nothing too special as such. And it was the Devil that infact does the job of liberating us and our minds from the slavery of ignorance and stagnation. All of this insofar as assuming Genesis is true, which it is not! ;)]

When I say that perfection is possible *only* to humans, I use a definition of perfection that is appropriate to humans, not one that is appropriate to Supernatural or mystical beings.

In of my earlier posts on the topic, "God Cannot be Perfect, but Man Can," I argued a similar line of reasoning. In the comments section there, I defined Human Perfection as:

Perfection is attained by keeping in mind the nature of reality and attaining the right to say without guilt that you have done nothing wrong; that you have nothing to hide; that you have nothing to regret about.

What is a perfect man? A man who is above reproach and devoid of guilt for any and all actions under his immediate control. A man whose actions match his integrity. A man who bears in mind the nature of reality, the nature of chance endemic in reality, the nature on non-intended consequences inherent in reality, but also knows that he is fully in control of his own actions and his own ideas.

I'm open to hearing your critiques (if any) of my projection of the perfect man and the way I have defined perfection.

mom said...

hello again! i wasn't going to take the time today to look at anything but i had to come up for something else and thought i quick look at you blog jason! so this blog had 15 comments! wow! what is the biggest # of comments you ever had on a post? well, anyway, darkmind i know you were kidding with me. i am glad i bring a smile to your face. i try to smile about everything and anything since for some reason things work out better that way. and you are very right about me being momish ever since i was a little girl i wanted to be a wife and a mom. it started i think with my cool playhouse my dad built me! :) i had some cool pink cardboard kitchen and play food, dolls, dress up clothing that was the coolest! well, anyway, i could on but got to go make a apple coffee cake i found in a magazine that looked so good! its ashame somebody is hacking these sites. why can't people just be nice to each other no matter what views we all have? i don't know about these anon. people either since they all sound like they are not enjoying life! these blogs are like someones diary that is not locked! :) i think its a good thing. its a bit better than a diary since people can open up a new idea either from reading the blog or commenting on the blog. well, better get to my kitchen. also, before i go darkmind, if i remember right you are from GA, i bet you guys are warmer than we are up north since we already had snow flakes here! sometimes i think with my age and all my aches and pains i should move to where its warmer. enjoy your weather. :) keep warm jason! love and prayers