tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20581097.post113901266200203433..comments2023-10-19T11:36:49.184-04:00Comments on Life & Otherwise . . .: Losing My Religion...Jason Hugheshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15643595412184843553noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20581097.post-1144699414603371542006-04-10T16:03:00.000-04:002006-04-10T16:03:00.000-04:00waraxe: True, I did not have many good examples, b...<B>waraxe:</B> True, I did not have many good examples, but there were a few in my life that stand as true examples of what I think, in my mind, what a christian should be if they want to claim that mantle. I have just decided, though, that that mantle i not for me, at least not at this time in my spiritual life... but thank you for your comments!<BR/><BR/><B>exbeliever:</B> Holy crap! And I thought I could be long-winded! :D<BR/><BR/>Those are some great questions you posed to your friend, and i hope he is eventually able to come to terms. It didn't take me nearly as long as I thought it would, but I had a great support system in place, ready to use for any crisis in my life...<BR/><BR/>Of course, I will have to desect your logic to see if I agree with it 100%, but that's just my nature... :D<BR/><BR/><B>Kelly:</B> Thanks! It's the product of three months of "should I post this? shouldn't I post this?" especially since I know a lot of my family reads this blog now.<BR/><BR/>Thank you all for your comments!Jason Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15643595412184843553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20581097.post-1144692205263882212006-04-10T14:03:00.000-04:002006-04-10T14:03:00.000-04:00Jason,I have a friend who went through the exact s...Jason,<BR/><BR/>I have a friend who went through the exact same things. He graduated from The Master's College (a very conservative Christian college), all the while hoping god would "make him straight." <BR/><BR/>He still seems to have a problem accepting himself fully. He and his partner have been together for about 12 years, but he can't get over the fact that he is somehow sinning.<BR/><BR/>On his blog, I posted the following comment [his name is Ty, his partner's name is Dennis]:<BR/><BR/>----<BR/>You wrote: "As it is, I have tended to live in a very awkward and untenable spot, acknowledging the 'biblical' position on homosexuality, yet continuing in my relationship because it makes my life better. It just does. I have made no pretense of saying it's the perfect or ideal situation, but it gives me stability and helps me focus on other matters, among which is how to be a better Christian."<BR/><BR/>I don't understand how you say that your situation is not "ideal." For whatever reason, it seems that you have determined that loving a person of your own sex is sinful.<BR/><BR/>A couple of weeks ago, I asked some questions that I really wish you would answer.<BR/><BR/>I asked:<BR/><BR/>Do you think your relationship to Dennis is "sinful"? <BR/><BR/>If so, why? <BR/><BR/>What about your relationship is sinful?<BR/><BR/>Is it sinful when you and Dennis watch a movie together? <BR/><BR/>Have dinner?<BR/><BR/>Talk about your day?<BR/><BR/>Say "I love you"?<BR/><BR/>Go out with friends?<BR/><BR/>Encourage each other?<BR/><BR/>Listen to music together?<BR/><BR/>Go to bookstores?<BR/><BR/>Fuck?<BR/><BR/>What exactly is "sinful" about what you do with Dennis?<BR/><BR/>Do you think any "god" worthy of that name would give a flying royal fuck who you love?<BR/><BR/>You say that there is a "biblical position" on this issue. Which of these does the Bible condemn? Why does the Bible condemn it?<BR/><BR/>Would you say there was a "biblical position" on the eating of consecrated bread in the Bible? Sure there was. It was not allowed. Yet, Jesus said that the situation determined whether or not the act was really sinful, because people were more important than rules (see Mark 2).<BR/><BR/>All this fundamentalist Christianity seems to have done some kind of mind-fuck on you. I don't get you. <BR/>-----<BR/><BR/>He wrote a brief response that I, in turn, responded to.<BR/><BR/>-----<BR/>You wrote: "But it's pretty messed up to have to ask, Which part of my relationship is sinful? What kind of question is that?"<BR/><BR/>A rhetorical one.<BR/><BR/>Think about how laughable it is that something like your relationship is sinful, but something like the fundamentalist ideal (i.e. submissive wife) is not sinful.<BR/><BR/>My questions are meant to demonstrate how ridiculous that claim is.<BR/><BR/>Let me break it down:<BR/><BR/>1) It's not sinful to care deeply about someone of the same sex. Christian heterosexuals do this. The sin can't be that you care deeply for Dennis; that you care what happens to him in his life; that you are glad when good things happen to him; that you are sad when he is sad. These are all feelings that all of us have for other people we care deeply about.<BR/><BR/>2) It's not sinful to enjoy someone's company when they are your same sex. Christian heterosexuals do this. Almost everyone has someone of the same sex that they like to spend time with.<BR/><BR/>3) Attraction is neither sinful nor praiseworthy; it just is. Attraction is uncontrollable; someone cannot force themselves to be not-attracted to someone nor can they force themselves to be attracted to someone. Ask any Christian heterosexual about an actor or actress that they find physically attractive. They will all have an answer. Married Christian men (if they have a brain and at least one working testicle) will tell you that Angelina Jolie is fucking hot. Married Christian women will tell you that Johnny Depp is beautiful. No Christian will say that attraction is sinful per se<BR/><BR/>So far, then, it is not sinful to care deeply for someone of the same sex, it is not sinful to enjoy spending time with someone of the same sex, and attraction per se cannot be controlled and is, therefore, not sinful; it just is.<BR/><BR/>What percentage of your relationship with Dennis have I just described? Care for, enjoy spending time with, and are attracted to. I would say that is a full 98% of my marriage.<BR/><BR/>So, what am I missing? Oh yea, sex! After ten years of marriage, I average about twice a month (although we have just started calendaring our intimate moments so that we have sex at least 4 times a month). [Oh, and in case any of you abstinent single (and, therefore, horny) people who read this are shocked by this, I can only say, "Just you wait!" And, also, don't think that you won't masturbate just as much when you are married as you do now. My wife and I are just honest about our masturbation habits, and we laugh about it.]<BR/><BR/>So, where was I, oh yeah, at least 98% of your relationship is sin free.<BR/><BR/>But what about that 2%? [I'm going to get graphic, here, so skip ahead if you are squeamish.]<BR/><BR/>Let me talk about my sex-life first. I have a penis. I can acheive an orgasm when my penis is stimulated for several minutes. Usually, my sexual encounters involve (a) kissing, (b) heavy-petting over and inside the clothes, (c) grinding (i.e. outside of the clothes genital on genital rubbing), (d) oral sex, and (e) vaginal intercourse until orgasm (hopefully, for both of us).<BR/><BR/>Now, what would male on male sex include? I would guess a-e are all a part of it. Some homosexual male couples may enjoy anal intercourse (but, then again, so do some heterosexual couples, so that can't be sinful.).<BR/><BR/>So, that's the biology of it all. What about the culture of it? Culturally, sex is the expression of numbers 1-3 above, right? Sex is a way of showing your lover that you care deeply about them, that you enjoy spending time with them, and that you are attracted to them. We have established, though, that 1-3 aren't sinful, so how can expressing these be sinful.<BR/><BR/>So, what is the part that the Bible deems sinful? Maybe it is the biology. Homosexual couples can't reproduce. But wait, there are some heterosexual couples that can' t reproduce either. Some biblical couples were in this situation. Those relationships aren't sinful, though. So it can't be the inability to reproduce.<BR/><BR/>What is the Christian god so concerned about? Think of a being who is all-powerful, all-wise, and morally perfect. Do you really think this being would give one goddamn about the biology of two humans having sex for 30 minutes 2-4 times a month? You've got to be kidding me!!! Do you really think a being powerfully, intellectually, and morally superior to any person we've ever met is petty enough to be concerned with so slight a matter? It's fucking absurd to think so.<BR/><BR/>So, why is it in the Bible? Because it was culturally a big deal. There were no "nations" during this time, there were only big cities that loosely controlled other cities. The more people in your city, the better off you were in the case of war. It was all about reproduction.<BR/><BR/>Want further proof that the Bible includes it because of the cultural concern of reproduction and power? How about polygamy? A lot of preachers simply say that the Hebrew Bible does not condemn polygamy, but it does not condone it either. Bullshit!<BR/><BR/>Consider 2 Samuel 12:8, "I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more."<BR/><BR/>One guess about who said this. That's right, your god said it, according to the Bible. God gave David Saul's wives. <BR/><BR/>There's your answer. There's why homosexuality is a "sin" in the Bible. Two dudes or two dudettes can't make babies, so their relationship can't make a city more powerful. Homosexuality, therefore, is culturally condemned. The Bible is a product of its culture, so it jumps on the bandwagon of condemnation. <BR/><BR/>The situation, however, has changed, my friend. We've got too goddamn many kids in this country anyway. The fucking Mormons and Catholics are reproducing enough for us all. You are actually doing us a favor by fucking someone who can't get pregnant.<BR/><BR/>Let's review:<BR/><BR/>1) Caring deeply about someone of the same sex is not sinful.<BR/><BR/>2) Enjoying the company of someone of the same sex is not sinful.<BR/><BR/>3) Attraction is uncontrollable and therefore, not sinful.<BR/><BR/>4) No being worthy of the name "god" could possibly be petty enough to care what your genitals rub against for 1-2 hours a month.<BR/><BR/>5) Homosexuality is only a sin in the Bible because the assholes who wrote it wanted to build a strong city that could defend itself in war.<BR/><BR/>It's ri-goddamn-diculous to continue cowering in a corner feeling guilty about your relationship.<BR/><BR/>Tyson, you're a damn fine human being. You're trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, and brave (holy shit did those Boy Scouts brainwash the fuck out of me!). I'm proud to call you my friend, and I wish this world contained more of you than it does.<BR/><BR/>Now, stop letting these assholes and that piece-of-shit book of mythology mind-fuck you so much. If those fucking Christians don't value your participation in their ever-increasingly irrelevant religion, then come join us apostate atheists. We would be honored to have a person of your character in our club.<BR/>----<BR/><BR/>Sorry for taking up so much space with my comment, but I have a lot of friends in the exact position you describe.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20581097.post-1144339960342527712006-04-06T12:12:00.000-04:002006-04-06T12:12:00.000-04:00Powerful stuff. Very interesting.Powerful stuff. Very interesting.Kelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05177166614042228459noreply@blogger.com